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[00:00:00] Welcome to Stories That Stick with me, Laura, as your resident storyteller. I'm here to show you how oral stories inspire and captivate minds young and old. Tune in each week to hear a compelling story and join in meaningful conversations. I'll be digging deep into the heart of storytelling, connection, and listening.
So whether you're a kid, teacher, caregiver, grandparent, or simply a lover of stories, This podcast is for you. Join me as you get lost in another world and discover how stories shape our lives. Here's to the next page in our story.
Welcome. I am super excited for today's episode. I have here one of my mentors that taught me almost everything I know about storytelling and story acting, and I'm going to let him introduce himself and tell you a little about himself. This is Dr. Ben Mardell. And I'd love you to tell us who [00:01:00] you are and what you're doing right now.
So well, it's really nice to be talking to you about storytelling, story acting, something we both really care deeply about. I think because we see how excited kids are when they're doing it and, and how much they're learning. So currently I'm The Atelierista and Pedagogista at the Newtown School, which is in Harvard School in Cambridge.
And that means that I'm the studio teacher, so I take small groups of kids throughout the school into the studio for playful small group activities that often include storytelling and story acting. And then as the Pedagogista, I consult with my colleagues and help with our ongoing emergent curriculum.
And I but I've done a lot of other things in early childhood before that. I've been in the field more than 40 years. I've taught infants, toddlers preschoolers, and kindergartners. I've been a teacher educator at Lesley University, [00:02:00] a researcher at Project Zero. And but it's always been focused on Thinking about, you know, how we, how can we make kids empowered and and empowered, not just as individuals, but as members of a, of a group, as, as a collective.
. I love thinking about that. Right. I so often talk with my children and other adults in, in my world about that shift in my parenting style from being the one that holds so much power and how much we can, you know, use or abuse that power. And for me, a lot of the ways that I shift What I've, you know, kind of grown up and learn is by talking about it.
So I talk with my kids, you know, there's oftentimes a while do or say something where I'm like, Oh, I was just like really using my power to decide what needed to happen. And I think it's really easy for us as adults to forget what it felt like to be a [00:03:00] child. And. How little power we actually, you know, had, especially depending on the setting that we were in, whatever the environment was or the adults that were around us at the time.
So I think that that's a really beautiful way to think about it.
And I think that one mistake, I think a lot of adults and sometimes teachers make is thinking of power as a zero sum game. Like if, if you give power to kids, then you lose power, but you actually, if you give power to kids, empower them make them capable, the, if you're thinking about a classroom or a family it's a family, It can sometimes become more powerful.
It's not that you're giving up and losing your power, but you're, you're making the, the, the whole more powerful. So that's something I think we educators need to keep in mind. So
I, yeah, absolutely. Right. Cause it is really easy. I think, especially in the early childhood world, you [00:04:00] know, many of us are constantly advocating that what needs to be happening is child led learning.
And many people, depending on the districts that they're in, or the type of environment they're in, are coming against a lot of blocks and roadblocks where it's, no, the adult is directing the learning. And then the perception becomes, well, if it's child led, or if you're giving that power to the children to decide what they're interested in, what they want to learn, that in some way becomes this free for all, right?
And that it's complete chaos, there are no rules, and it's And it's bananas, which we know in fact, when children are given the trust and the power and they see that we believe in them and follow their leads, then that's where that magic really does happen.
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure
you've seen that in so many different ways, right?
Yes.
Yes. Because you've done so much of that project based learning, which is what that's all about. Yeah. So [00:05:00] I know you just did your big project with on the pedagogy of play. Right.
Do
you want to tell us a little bit about that?
So the Pedagogy of Play was a collaboration between Project Zero, which is a research group at the Harvard Graduate School of Education and LEGO Foundation, thinking about how to bring more play and playful learning into schools, both in early childhood, but in elementary and middle and high school as well.
So really thinking about, well, articulating why Playful learning is important. What, what, what are the affordances of, of, of play and connected to learning that make it a valuable thing to have in schools? What it looks like in different cultural settings, because while play and playful learning, there's some universal aspects, it's also culturally situated.
Like for, and with play it's like, When you play, how you play, what you play with, who you play with if you're supposed to [00:06:00] stop playing at a certain age are all part of the culture that you're in and so thinking about the cultural dynamics of, of playful learning, and then, then thinking about how teachers and school leaders, and school leaders can be the principal, but I think teachers also can think of themselves in that role.
What can, what are some practices that, that, that educators can do to, to support building a culture in classrooms and schools that are around playful learning? So, so, and that's, those are the three questions. I'm, Happy to say that we decided to self publish our, our book instead of going with the publisher.
So I can now say, I can say the statement that if you go to the Pedagogy of Play web page on the Project Zero website, you can download the PDF of the book for free. You can download a Spanish version or you can download a Chinese version. So that's that's really good. And the book answers these three questions and, and [00:07:00] really I think a lot of people find the chapter on practices that go really into the weeds of what, what teachers can do very valuable.
Yeah, I think that resource is amazing. When I saw that you could grab it as a free PDF, I was like, this is brilliant. And the website is so well put together. And when I saw it had other versions, and I think there's also like almost a a workbook that accompanying accompanies it as well to help educators, or I don't know who else would read it besides educators, but that helps educators probably unpack some, some biases or things that they need to unlearn or rethink.
Which is, which is awesome. That was really exciting, and like, the little play based world for, for me, I know, and a lot of other people that I know, we were really excited when that came out, because, you know, it's the, we know, we know, right? And so often, it's, we just keep coming across these, you know, the things that are stopping play from happening, and I agree.
It doesn't stop [00:08:00] just when a kid turns five or six. It's so important for children to have access to free play for forever. Yeah. So I'd love to hear kind of some of your thoughts on how storytelling is play.
Well, first, a lot of play is, is connected to narrative and, and, and, and kids will spin out dramas they'll either individually with puppets or, or stuffed animals or but often with, with other kids and, and sometimes with, with caregiver, older caregivers as well.
They love telling tales. It starts developing. You know, starting at two and three by five and six, Paley talked about kindergarten as being the height of, of, of dramatic play. The, the kids are players at that age. But they continue to love to do that in first and second grade and, and even beyond that as well.
And so the, the idea that we're telling a story or creating a story [00:09:00] is very playful. That Kids have the agency that that an element of play that they get. And I mean, Paley sometimes had she would call them you know, there may be conventions are rules of social conventions that each classroom has about What is acceptable, there may be some things out of bounds.
And I think for her it was private family matters. She didn't want kids to be, she would caution kids to have that in their story. But otherwise, pretty much kids can tell what kind of story they want about Who they can take the story in the direction that they want it's it's, there's not a, a set script there, they're in charge and then the acting out is, is, is play that they're that they're involved with and, and figuring out that's, that dynamic.
So both the, the telling, but then the story acting component as well is allows us. For that, for [00:10:00] that and and it, I guess part of the thing about that play can be joyful, not, it's fun, but it's also this, when kids really come together and make a story, a successful story acting episode, there is a certain feeling of accomplishment that they, they know that just, that was good.
Yeah. It felt good to do that together. And that that's also an element of play as well. So.
Yeah, absolutely. You know, that actually what I just had a memory. I've spoken with Tricia Lee a lot and we've talked about how different it would be in this day and age, post COVID you know, when children were learning virtually and how different it would be.
I mean, I'm sure you remember when we did the story acting session with her children in the UK and we had the projectors and, you know, we were using so much. Skype and, you know, none of the [00:11:00] technology that we have now and children, you know, very unfamiliar. They didn't have FaceTime or things like that, but how well they still like passed the treasure through the camera.
Right. And we all felt like as adults, like that it happened, like, look at that. They cross interacted digitally and we just laugh about, wow, we put kids. You know, on a screen now, they would like we, they wouldn't even need us. They'd be just telling and acting out stories like we know how to do this all the time.
Yeah, that was a, that was a magical moment from, from Boston to London.
It really was. It was so cool.
Yeah, I think I think that was that episode too. I remember thinking in your classroom, the kids were very open to being any kind of characters like boys, boys weren't hung up about being a female character and and vice versa.
But the one thing that they really We're very reluctant, [00:12:00] whereas I think there was a story about the Boston Red Sox playing the New York Yankees, and nobody wanted to be a New York Yankee in your class.
That sounds right. I mean, when we're in Boston, I could see how there might have been some, you know, stink eyes from their family at home.
But absolutely, I think one of the things that you and I both Have seen with storytelling and story acting that one of the like key aspects that isn't always highlighted. Of course, they're learning literacy skills and they're learning social skills, but that sense of community that happens and the way that children start to, you know, be inspired by one another's stories and start to include maybe characters that others like or are interested in so that they are including them in their narratives and the way that All the stories become this living, breathing body throughout the time that those children are doing this and being [00:13:00] that time and time again was always the most magical.
For me, because like you said, they had agency. They had the ability to choose where it went, right. Who we're going to become the characters that always showed up or what was the storyline that was constantly going to be, you know, acted out. And that is such a beautiful thing to see. I love that.
Yeah, just the sense of this is the way that we in our class pretend to be a house, right?
Different ways that you can do that. But there's that, that, that's something that we as a group figured out and feel really good about. So
right. And that probably there's this, unless they're seeing other, you know, other people acting out or things that probably sometimes those moments of like, well, no, that's not how you act out a house.
Like it's clearly you bend over and you have two feet and two hands on the [00:14:00] ground. This is the way right. Where some other children might do it in a different way. And that was the thing that I learned. So much from Trisha Lee was like sitting on your hands and making sure you weren't modeling any of those kinds of actions, because as adults, it's so easy for us to want to maybe move, especially at the beginning, the story acting along or, you know, Solve that issue when it's, you know, a tree or a vehicle or whatever it might be and give those suggestions.
But as much as we can, as educators, if we just Slow down and allow the Children to, you know, pause the story and negotiate while they're on the stage what it might look like. To have the different characters being different things. That's really, I mean, so, yeah.
Yeah. Or, or even, or just giving again, the power to the kids.
So what's happening a lot the youngest group at new town, I'm doing a bunch of storytelling in conjunction with their teachers and [00:15:00] after each episode, we often have a conversation. And some of it is, you know, last week one of the kids said, well, I asked, what other characters could we have in stories?
And somebody suggested a rainbow. So then, then the question became, how do you act out a rainbow? And it wasn't that I would then say, you should, you act out, you know, what you just said, that would, that would be thinking, I need to hold the power, but it would be, so Timon, how would you do that? Oh, that's kind of cool.
Well Nora, do you have another idea? Oh, Yeah, that's kind of interesting. And what do you think Finlay? And so, the kids are just even though they're, some of them haven't turned three yet, they're really invested in the conversation and they have some really good ideas and ideas that, you know, that work for them.
That's so awesome. I love that. I think that was A big takeaway for me as well that I started to learn [00:16:00] when we were doing our Boston listen, because we were learning how to do storytelling and story acting and we were having these professional development seminars, so it was forcing us to really dig deep into what the children were doing, but also what were we as educators doing and trying to figure out like, could it, it couldn't, it can't be this simple.
It can't just be 10 minutes of like writing a story and acting it out. There has to be more. But in looking back, I was like, oh my goodness, this is the easiest thing to do that takes the smallest amount of time. It's such a big bang for your buck. But I remember You know, learning that sometimes just having those conversations right after right and commenting on yeah how awesome they navigated around the space together or being like, yeah, we've been telling a lot of stories about x.
What else could we include in these? Or I've noticed when you're playing outside, you're, you know, pretending to be such and such, like, would you want to include that into your stories? And how [00:17:00] just having conversations with the kids, they love that. Yeah. I mean, they want to talk about it and it just sparks all those, those different ideas.
So are you, so you're doing it with kids that are like twos and threes, right? Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. At what
age? Just does the Newtown School go up to?
So we go up to, there's there's four age based classrooms and kids can be like one nine in September up to five. And so now, you know, the oldest are five and a half and, and the youngest are like two and a half.
And so but it just kind of spontaneously happened with the youngest kids starting doing storytelling, story acting, and then the next oldest class, we do it a lot as well. And yeah, it's And with the next oldest class, the purple fish, it was, there was, even in the last couple sessions, there's been a shift in terms of the understanding of, of, of, [00:18:00] of stories and, and the acting and they, they always enjoy doing it, but kind of the, the routine has been very important and, and then the idea of, well, you know, going around, well, I want to be the mom.
Well, there was, but there's no mom in the story. So but you know, so when you're, you tell your story, you can include a mom and, oh, okay.
Right. And now I'm going to hold that in my mind till I could tell a story and I'm going to include a mom. Yeah,
exactly. Exactly. So
that's beautiful. Now I'm curious, are you telling stories with them?
Yes, so I also tell stories and I think you know my, my mouse puppet, Enlin. And so something that I have found early on in teaching is that in forming relationships with young children who sometimes can be shy around unfamiliar adults, kids will interact with my puppet before they interact with me.
And so, Enlin was [00:19:00] especially important early on. And introducing me to, because this is my first year at Newtown and Newtown and Lynn is extremely popular. She's a rock star at, at the school. She gets mail, she gets presents. They've decided that her favorite Cheese is smoked Gouda cheese and one of the kids made her a little lunchbox because of course she's at school during lunch so she has to have lunch and inside was some pretend smoked Gouda cheese and so but So, Enlind has been there's some stories that Enlind is involved with, like the classic loudmouse but there's also other stories and, and again, it's just a really nice way to connect and with, with kids and form bonds and they know that there's some favorite stories that I can share with them and and that's something that we enjoy together, so.
I love that. So have you [00:20:00] always kind of thought of yourself as a storyteller? Did you, were you always telling story when you were younger children? Like what happened?
So I, I have this, I'm glad you asked that because it brings up an old memory, but it's a, it's a nice memory. It was 1984. So that was a while ago.
I was substitute teaching at my friend Ann Kornblatt's Head Start classroom in Austin, Brighton. And you know, we would, Ann and I would trade off doing the the meeting times. And in the planning for this particular meeting, the teacher was supposed to model a story box that had a number of, a variety of props that was then going to be in a, at a table that kids can use to tell stories.
And it, Looking back on it, they maybe weren't the most inspiring props, but there was like a hole punch and a, and a stapler. And [00:21:00] anyways, I took them. I hadn't, you know, I wasn't the most intentional teacher at that point. I had kind of just fallen into teaching it and only been doing it a year or so.
So I had the story box in front of me and I just was totally ad libbing it. And it was a really horrible story. Looking back on it, it was. The hole punch was chasing the the the stapler and then the stapler was running away and, and I, and then I, I, and then I could draw, like I was talking and, and get, and I was getting into it though and, and then I like stopped for a second and I looked and the 18 kids were all staring at me.
They were totally engrossed and, and the, I have to say before that the meeting times were the least favorite part because I didn't know how to do it very well. And so there was always like a lot of management issues because actually the meetings weren't all that compelling. I didn't know what I was doing.
But here I was like, whoa, [00:22:00] there is something here. And that's when I started then. thinking about storytelling. I went to some storytelling workshops and, you know, got, there's still some stories that I tell to this day that I, I, I forget the name of the storyteller who taught the workshop, but, but she, she taught me some really nice tales that I kids, kids continue to enjoy.
And then I, encountered the work of Vivian Paley and learned about the storytelling story acting practice and, and was off and running with that as well, so.
Oh, that's so interesting. I mean, it really is. You know, one of the things that I have always found and it's like you said, right, you're like, this was a really horrible story and I was using a hole punch and a stapler, but it's not always the storytelling.
It's not always as much about the content of it as this like bonding moment. And this, the level of engagement that I always see from children. And one of the things that I noticed. for myself when [00:23:00] I'm telling stories is I have to be like 100 present if I'm, especially if I'm making up a story, I can't be thinking about what I'm going to grocery shop for.
I can't be thinking about when the kids have to line up for lunch. I can't be thinking about anything else because I forget the character. I, I don't know where it's going to go. And I am like a hundred percent present. And I imagine children pick up on that when we are a hundred percent present. And when we are kind of our mind a little bit somewhere else.
And we're there with them. And I think that storytelling is one of those times, especially if we as adults are telling stories, we are doing something that comes so easily to them that they are doing in their play all the time. And, you know, telling silly things that would never happen. How often do they hear an adult telling about a stapler chasing a whole bunch, never.
Right. So it's that like comedy and it's like, what is this adult doing that they're like playing on our level?
Yeah, it's it's [00:24:00]
I feel like it's that window where you know, we are we are playing ourselves and inviting the children in to see it. Whereas normally we are watching and noticing their play and then maybe they invite us into it.
But those moments where we are telling stories, especially if it's a story we love or we get really into it, that they, they see that they authentically see that. And that's where that level of engagement, I think, can really come in for the adult and the child.
Yeah, no, absolutely. But, and I think that I, I haven't told that story about that whole punch in the stapler in a while, but when I was, had been doing storytelling, story acting workshops and talking about the importance of adults sharing stories as models as ways of connecting, building community that I felt was a useful story because it's like, you know, You don't have to be great to start. And you, you kind of just have to start. [00:25:00] And the audience, a three or four or five or six year old audience is a really forgiving audience. They're not they're just going to appreciate that you're, you're giving it a try. And and, and, and they're going to be with you. And so, and then obviously, Just like we tell kids, you get better by practicing and trying and and making mistakes and and being inspired by other people.
And and there's so many good stories out there. And it's a way to Just kids love stories about your cat or about your kids or about when you were a kid or going to school and there's so much material you can draw on personally, but also stories about your community from your community. So and, and just.
You know, on the web now, like, I was just going back. There was a years ago, there was a wonderful storyteller in Boston named J. O. Callahan. [00:26:00] And I was just found some of his stories that I, I used to love when I was, you know, 20, 30 years ago. But I think that's just, I named him not because he's You should do J.
O'Callaghan, but it's, there's just a lot of good stories out there that, then you can listen to, you can attribute. But that's the thing about storytellers is that it's an oral tradition. It gets passed down. There's nothing more complimentary than somebody taking your story and telling it to another group of kids.
So.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, did you hear loud mouth from somebody else or was that one you made up your own?
That's one of the, that was one of the story workshops when I was a novice teacher and I was trying to get some stories and
the workshop leader told this story and she had some very good advice. At first she had us turn and tell the story to the person next to us and vice versa. But then she said, go home and tell it to your housemate. And if you, if you tell it one more time, you're going to remember it. [00:27:00] And then on Monday, when you're back with kids, tell it again, and then, you know then it's, then you have a new story as part of your repertoire.
So,
yep. I mean, I remember that sage advice because that, when you told us You know, Loudmouth Slim was when we did Boston Listen. Part of that was teaching us stories and and exposing us to stories. And I remember you shared that. It was like, once you've told the story three times, you will know it. And so when I tell a story, because I tell stories most nights to my children, when I tell one and I'm like, Oh, that was a good one.
Like sometimes, and look, Children audiences like when they're not your own kids are super forgiving your own kids. They're not forgiving. My daughter will straight up be like, that was not a good story. You need to tell a better one. Try again. But if I tell one and I'm like, Ooh, I'll go right into my room and try to write it down or I'll tell it again on a voice note.
So I can remember it and then tell it to them again the next day. And then usually it is [00:28:00] there, but it's so interesting. I remember you sharing that advice with us. Like if you tell a story multiple times, you can tell it like three times and then, then you'll just start adding it into your repertoire.
Yeah. That's awesome. Um, so I would love, I know you were talking just a little bit before about your current research now, and I'd love to hear a little bit about it and, or.
Oh, yeah.
Of course, as you were just sharing that, I was thinking about ways you could incorporate stories in with it as well, obviously.
Yeah. So So I'm really, well, I think like many people, I'm concerned about the many different environmental crises we have, and I'm thinking about what this means, what are the implications for early childhood educators, knowing that the kids that we're teaching, we don't know exactly, What the world will be like when they're adults, but we know that it's going to be different.
And it's very likely going to be more turbulent [00:29:00] that the environmental, the climate is going to become more problematic and that's going to cause more social and political uncertainty and unrest. And so as part of, so that's what I'm thinking about what as early childhood educators. We need to be doing in order to prepare our kids for this future and and I guess I'm thinking two broad things.
One is is the project that work that you talked about involving engaging kids in projects that involve the whole school community because that project work By taking kids ideas seriously, it fosters agency, it fosters collaboration creativity and, and just adaptability. That, there's that kind of curriculum, you don't actually, nobody knows where it's exactly going to go.
Just like the real world. So I think [00:30:00] that There's a Dave Perkins, who was one of the key people at Project Zero, likes to talk about how, you know, classrooms are really pretty tame in a lot of ways, while the world out there is pretty wild. And it's not that the classroom should be completely wild, because as educators we need to Makes help kids process and make sense.
But if the classroom is is is too tame, if you know and sadly, a lot of classrooms kind of know what's going to be happening in day one and what's going to be happening in day 180 and actually, what's some classrooms know what's going to be happening at, you know, noon on day 65 and the principal will be pissed off if you're not on the page in the master film.
That's way too tame. Project work is a way to make it a little bit wilder because it, it allows for kids [00:31:00] input in and their interests and, and takes it in, in different directions. And so project work is one of the things I'm thinking about. And the second thing just I'm sorry, I won't ramble on too much.
No, please. Is kids. Relationships with the natural world and being helping them, especially because we're in the middle of a city where some people would say, oh, there's no nature. Well, there's actually a lot of critters that live around us. And that, but I, I, I think that, you know, Not everyone, but a lot of Cambridge residents kind of don't pay attention and don't take into account those critters when making decisions about our city.
And and and I think that It seems clear that that kind of, like, lack of thinking about the natural world is ultimately not [00:32:00] sustainable for human beings as well that we're part of a, the system and if we don't take into account the trees and and the animals and the The ecosystem in the long term, that's not great for for human beings.
And so I think helping kids become more aware and, and feel a part of that these trees and, and, and squirrels and birds and bugs are, were a part of a larger system where actually these, these are maybe going too far to say fellow citizens, but, but, fellow co inhabitants of the city that we need to have some regard to.
Now it's complicated because I'm not telling kids not to swat a mosquito, but I am wanting them to be aware, to be curious about, to enjoy, And then ultimately to think about, you know, when they are adults and like [00:33:00] to think about how to create a city that is works for human beings, but also for the other critters that are co inhabiting the city.
And unfortunately, just after Ben was sharing about his research, I had my first tech issue, my Wi Fi cut out towards the end of this interview. And so I thank you for joining and sorry you didn't get to hear the last bit of our conversation, but I hope this was insightful and helpful for you.
The end. But really, that's it for today's episode of Stories That Stick. Inspiring and captivating minds, young and old. Remember, stories have the incredible ability to spark conversations, ignite imagination, and create lasting connections. If you loved what you heard, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave a five star review.
It really does make a difference. And, if you have a story to share or [00:34:00] a topic you want me to explore, reach out to me on Instagram at LittleStoriesThatStick. Until next time, keep working that storytelling muscle and tell stories every day.
